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Author Topic: Discussion from "EC changes"  (Read 9607 times)

lfroen

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2010, 08:55:44 PM »

You're a sad, sad individual
Plenty of people disagree. But - your opinion is good as any other.

.. and will act the way I have to act next time this happens.
Save your threats. I don't respond to bullies. Never did in high school and will not start in my forty. I never call stupidity "suboptimal solution" either.

My advise, however stays the same - grow up. In majority of forums (my personal sample) (over)use of "fuck" and "bitch" will get you banned. On none of aforementioned forums, I was called "to behave" for asking someone "but why would you do such and such thing?". Talk about attitude.
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Kry

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2010, 10:45:30 PM »

You're far beyond any redeeming chance. You just go on and on about stuff that either you know it's pointless to discuss (everyone knows that my use of fuck and bitch in this thread were jokes, both times, except you it seems) or you are just too blind to see. You call what you did "asking someone but why would you do such and such thing?" when it's clear what you were actually doing (trying to ridicule Stu and what he was doing). And you keep telling me to grow up, even if I've had more patience with you in this thread than most people would because, you see, I was just trying to make it clear that as long as we drop this and you stop doing this stuff that you do all the time nowadays, we're all in the clear.

However even I can run out of patience. I tire of this. I used to appreciate your skills back when you were actually doing something other than being an ass to users and team members, but right now you're way more trouble than you're worth. This is not just my opinion - this is the opinion of anyone I have asked now or in the past about it. Now, you can assume everyone else is wrong and you're the only one with the absolute truth about it, or you can think about it and change your attitude. That is, if you care at all about sticking around this project anymore. If you don't care at all about the users, the team or the project, just step down, become a respected former member,  and let everyone else have constructive discussions, a proper friendly environment and do what they want to do in this volunteers' project to improve and learn.

We're supposed to be here to learn, to contribute to something, and above all, to have fun. This team has admins to ensure that things keep being that way - after all, no one gets paid for this (and some people just bleed money on this project because they like it) so we have to enjoy the experience to keep doing it, or we would be just plain masochistic. And the way you're behaving has been getting progressively more insulting and generally more offensive over the years towards everyone involved - you've made people uncomfortable and dreading responding to some threads just out of how unpleasant your passive-agressive condescending posts are.

There has to be a line in the sand, and this is it. It's not fun to play around you anymore.

Before you respond to this, think about it. Is it worth it to try to be nicer, and have meaningful and constructive discussions to stick around and keep being part of this, maybe trying to apply your claimed intelligence to help and teach other people, or is it better to just leave altogether? Of course, you have the third way: skip the personal interaction and limit yourself to SVN, ignoring the forum altogether (that way only exists out of respect to what you've done for the project in the past ).

You're going to have to choose one of those options, because if not, someone else will have to choose for you. And this is not a threat - things have to change one way or the other, because the current situation is unsustainable.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 10:54:49 PM by Kry »
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lfroen

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2010, 12:30:42 PM »

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Is it worth it to try to be nicer, and have meaningful and constructive discussions to stick around and keep being part of this, maybe trying to apply your claimed intelligence to help and teach other people
I guess you teach nobody. Because teaching include part of saying: "what you read/build/done is wrong. Don't do it again. Go and read such-and-such before trying again". Moreover, it's pointless to have discussion with your student before he took time to follow my advise and "read such-and-such".

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Now, you can assume everyone else is wrong and you're the only one with the absolute truth about it, or you can think about it and change your attitude
If we talk about teaching, this one included too. Did you ever learned really complicated subject? Like tensor calculus, or solid matter physics? Than, you would know that "absolute truth" doesn't change because teacher refuse to discuss it with you. You think that teacher is arrogant prick that think that only he can hold "absolute truth" while you have alternative view on subject. It doesn't matter, what you think, you just wrong, he is right, and calling him "arrogant prick" won't make you understand things better.

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We're supposed to be here to learn, to ...
Calling better-knowing person "bitch" won't make you (or anyone else) better learner. That I can assure you. On my job I'm being paid to guide people, so I have quite of an experience here.

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... and above all, to have fun.
People have different definition of "fun". Some, call coding exercises "fun". I don't. It's fun (IMHO) when result is useful, visible or measurable. So, you want to learn C++ - that kind of fun I will not share. Want to learn network programming, difference between bandwidth and latency - buy a book,computer and router. Connect it and have fun. I don't have to share it too.

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Of course, you have the third way: skip the personal interaction and limit yourself to SVN
In real-life project, that would be exactly the case. Yet another example from my day job: there is stuff that I maintain. I don't have to argue with anyone about why some idea is good or bad. I can just answer "imho your idea is bad, current code stays". There's no forum. No committee. No "you're bad person, I want to have fun". and so on. But - here we have no such division, and everyone suddenly have opinion about every aspect of application, staring from GUI and down to compilation options.

To conclusion - have fun. Rewrite EC. Keep GUI locked. Maintain that horribly looking website (still no decent "Downloads" section?). Don't let other people to ruin the image.
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Stu Redman

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2010, 02:58:37 PM »

I'm finding this whole business sad. Lfroen, I just plain don't understand you (guess that's the way you like it). I know you are very competent (nobody doubts that). But from what I saw of your teaching capabilities I pity everybody who has to suffer them on a regular basis. I've met enough people at university who had their heads just as high in the clouds and whose lessons were a total waste of time. Like when I asked you questions about EC in the past which could have been answered in a few simple sentences instead of "read some books and educate yourself". Well, I read some code and got the answers I needed. No problem, but that's not my idea of co-work in a project.
You've been on this project for much longer than me but you still don't (or don't want to) understand Kry. When he is joking, when he is not. When he is really talking clear text and trying to get through your thick skull to reach an understanding.
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We're supposed to be here to learn, to contribute to something, and above all, to have fun.
This is exactly my idea of being part of this project. What's yours, lfroen? It's perfectly ok if you don't have time to contribute anymore. But what fun are you getting out of this? From calling everything anybody does wrong without making suggestions what to do instead? There is no absolute wrong/right, good/bad in computer programming. There are different goals to achieve and different paths to them. I don't claim what I'm doing at the moment will totally change users' experience of EC. I'm doing it because I believe it will be an improvement, I find it worthy of spending my time on it, and I'm having fun doing it.
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lfroen

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2010, 05:56:14 PM »

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I just plain don't understand you
There's nothing wrong with that. I can explain my "humble opinion" once more, or you can ask for specific thing that you want to hear about.

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Well, I read some code and got the answers I needed
See, substitute "books" with "code" and this is exactly what happened here. Isn't it motto of open-source anyway?

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... but that's not my idea of co-work in a project.
I, on the other hand, disagree. If your question can be answered by reading the code, that's the way.

Some words to the subject (if someone is still listening).
By now, EC is relatively stable both in means of definition and code quality. In terms of bandwidth it takes modest 5-10KBps. There's no problem that roots in amount of transferred data. I hope I make myself clear.
The problem of EC (as any other RPC application) lies in latency between (user) request and (application) status change, or in other words, application tagged as sluggish. This problem can not be solved by reducing amount of transferred data (in this scale). Solution may be changing request behavior ("push" notification which I begin to implement), change transport type (Unix socket instead of tcp), and that's generally it.
I asked you to measure bandwidth so you will see that above is correct. Did you followed my advise?

All this lengthy explanation lead us to question: why do you want to re-code it nevertheless? According to Kry 2 reason exists:
1. "Learn something"
2. "Have fun"
Choose yours.

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What's yours, lfroen?
Solve people's problems by creating useful software. I don't write single line of code without clear idea what (and who's) problem it going to solve.

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There is no absolute wrong/right, good/bad in computer programming.
Hmm? Yes there is. There are algorithms/solutions which supposed to be used in well known circumstances. Use them - right/good. Fail to apply correct one - wring/bad.

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I don't claim what I'm doing at the moment will totally change users' experience of EC
Too bad, because that would be good thing to work for. And, btw, EC is tiny part of user experience. I would be nice if you could contribute there instead.

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I find it worthy of spending my time on it, and I'm having fun doing it
Have fun in your own time with nice coding exercise. Don't be surprised when nobody can recognize results (or "I told you so").
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Stu Redman

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2010, 07:28:13 PM »

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Isn't it motto of open-source anyway?
Working together is the motto of open source.
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If your question can be answered by reading the code, that's the way.
Underlying concepts are not always easy to grasp from code only, especially if the writer didn't bother to explain them well with comments. Being the professional you claim to be you should know that. Well, this sums up your attitude nicely.
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In terms of bandwidth it takes modest 5-10KBps.
Which would bite a big chunk out of upload capability for many clients still. If I hadn't reduced it.
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The problem of EC (as any other RPC application) lies in latency between (user) request and (application) status change
So, did you measure latency to confirm this theory?
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This problem can not be solved by reducing amount of transferred data (in this scale).
Did you read this?
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"push" notification which I begin to implement
began and then abandoned half finished you mean.
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I don't write single line of code without clear idea what (and who's) problem it going to solve.
You wrote at least two half finished EC clients that solve nobodies problems because they are useless in their current state. More than a single line of code I should say.
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I would be nice if you could contribute there instead.
Wouldn't we all love to see you being nice for a change...
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lfroen

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2010, 08:00:08 PM »

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Which would bite a big chunk out of upload capability for many clients still. If I hadn't reduced it.
Attempt to control amule via same line which is used for upload is exercise in futility. Buffering on provider router (used to increase TCP performance) usually cause huge latency even if you do limit bandwidth.

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So, did you measure latency to confirm this theory?
Yes its not that complicated, you know. Measuring stuff in networks is what I do for a living, generally speaking.

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"push" notification which I begin to implement
began and then abandoned half finished you mean.
What happened to "working together"? Why don't you continue? I will gladly explain underlying concept if it's unclear from the source.

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You wrote at least two half finished EC clients that solve nobodies problems because ...
Memory misleads you. I wrote (3) three clients. C++ remote-gui, remember? C# I abandoned since I stopped to use Windows, and developing in Monodevelop is kind of masochism. Obj-C client is functional for basic features (see status, add links).
But, more important, both were attempts to attract other developers (in C# and Obj-C respectively). I saw now someone pushing for Python client. Uh-oh.

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wuischke

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2010, 10:11:48 PM »

Well, like everyone else so far I have an high opinion of your abilities. But I wish your tone wasn't often far from inviting and and I wish your criticism was generally more constructive. I mean, it's OK to say some idea is rubbish if it is, but it's more helpful to give a short - 2 to 3 sentences are enough - explanation along with "you're wrong".

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I saw now someone pushing for Python client. Uh-oh.
Count this as a learning experience. There's no doubt I have yet much to learn. My goal is to create an accessible library with clean code and good documentation. (Haven't reached it.)
[tongue-in-cheek] If some of the kids these days with their scripting languages find it more interesting than Microsoft's business language and something unheard of outside of apple-land, it's fine with me, too.
Don't get me wrong - I prefer C# to Java and C++ and using the language (on Windows) was a surprisingly pleasurable experience. Still, I wouldn't use it in my free time. And aMule's history has shown that Mac developers are notoriously hard to come by.
I don't know if people who know Python are interested in writing remote clients, but there was at least one gui who already used Python in combination with amulecmd for an Iphone client.
 
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[...] Keep GUI locked. Maintain that horribly looking website (still no decent "Downloads" section?).[...]
The first one is very bad situation for aMule and it's really taking way too long now. I would be pissed, but since I stopped using the program shortly after becoming a developer, I don't care much.
The second one is partly my fault, because I wanted to work on a redesign - this was in 2008. Motivation is lacking.
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Stu Redman

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2010, 11:01:20 PM »

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Why don't you continue?
Why would I? Because you are asking so nicely? I haven't seen any example of a working push EC client to build on. There's just your Cocoa-client I can't run (let alone debug), written in a language I don't know and have no interest in learning, and with zero comments. I have no idea how much is missing in implementation and in concept. If I wanted to take a look at push concept (which I'm actually considering for 2.4) it would probably be easier to start over fresh.
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Memory misleads you. I wrote (3) three clients. C++ remote-gui, remember?
C++ remote-gui is not half-finished and abandoned, and working fine. Try reading before answering for a change.
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Maintain that horribly looking website
That's so off-topic even for a thread in off-topic (Wuischke, thanks for moving it btw). And I can't see anything horrible about the website. It's doing its job. If someone wants to download, he can. If it doesn't match Mac users' look&feel (doesn't look like iTunes or what?) I couldn't care less.
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lfroen

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2010, 01:05:54 PM »

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Why would I?
Because this is good idea to do so. If you find my code incorrect/buggy/etc, you could write your own. This IMHO would affect user experience far more than improving compression.

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I haven't seen any example of a working push EC client to build on. There's just your Cocoa-client I can't run
You right, that's why I encourage you to ask question(s) about it, and I can point you to code in Cocoa client. Obj-C code looks almost like C/C++, you will have no problem understand what's going on.

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..it would probably be easier to start over fresh
don't let me stop you then?

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C++ remote-gui is not half-finished and abandoned, and working fine. Try reading before answering for a change.
The point is that I wrote several EC clients with varying degree of success. Feel free to "svn rm" results of failed experiments
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lfroen

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2010, 01:30:06 PM »

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And I can't see anything horrible about the website
Beyond matter of personal taste about visual design, I can point to specific broken things. "Downloads" area is one of them.

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(doesn't look like iTunes or what?)
You do know what iTunes is, do you?
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phoenix

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2010, 02:30:04 AM »

I know you are very competent (nobody doubts that).
I do doubt. :) Seriously.

Well, like everyone else so far I have an high opinion of your abilities.
I don't.

Just saying things here, not really beeing constructive. But so isn't lfroen. The sad part? He really sincerely thinks he is.

Cheers!
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lfroen

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2010, 08:31:59 PM »

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I do doubt. Seriously.
So? Does your doubts makes what I say less true? Ahh, I see. Good day for trolling?

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Just saying things here, not really beeing constructive. But so isn't lfroen. The sad part? He really sincerely thinks he is.
I think word "constructive" doesn't mean what you think it mean.
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phoenix

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2010, 01:10:37 PM »

So? Does your doubts makes what I say less true? Ahh, I see. Good day for trolling?
No,  I am not questioning what you said. I am questioning what the people I quoted said. And about trolling, I believe you know exactly what it means, I think I made myself clear about that in another thread. I just express my feelings, as the result of the experience of my "virtual" contact with you all these years. The facts that I have doubts is a fact. Though in fact, it does not validate or invalidate anything else you might have said. It just invalidates the sentence "no one doubts". I do.

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Just saying things here, not really beeing constructive. But so isn't lfroen. The sad part? He really sincerely thinks he is.
I think word "constructive" doesn't mean what you think it mean.
Maybe you are right, but how could I know? Sometimes to construct something you have to destruct what was previously there. Other than that, conotative meanings are part of any language. Or maybe I just missed that class at my English course and ended constructing a new meaning to the word.

Best regards, really.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2010, 01:12:19 PM by phoenix »
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Kry

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Re: Discussion from "EC changes"
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2010, 07:39:22 PM »

I want to make something clear here: While I may or not agree with phoenix in his opinion of lfroen (All I have said is that I respect his previous work in the project, which I do of everyone), and of course people were wrong to say that everyone finds him to be oh-so-very-awesome, still there's no point in beating a dead horse here by provoking him when he's more or less behaving as requested. So please phoenix, you made your point clear that you disagree with some people - so move on, and please lfroen, there's no need for you to get your panties in a bunch because of it - so move on as well.

Will everyone just fucking calm the fuck down for a while, you're giving me an ulcer.
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