aMule Forum
English => Offtopic Section (Nonsense inside) => Small talk => Topic started by: Kry on January 29, 2004, 04:03:58 PM
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Un-Thesis wanted to talk to a 'new' amule dev that had nothing against him, not like me or Creteil (his own words) So I sent Citroklar.
Here's the deal he proposes. Please vote.
it's simple really
really fucking simple
you put me in charge of the protocol library and you guys can do what you want w/ the gui
xmule and amule guis will still exist only on a shared library
the library specs would use an opensource corss-platform socket+thread library other than wx but would not be an exe but a library
the library would be lgpl'd
of course this won't happen
you'll find the amule devs quite unresponsive
at least the leaders
EDIT: Please post the reason for your vote. Thanks!
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a) i agree him to join us.
this means he will be like us.
first time he will says: "fuck you you don't understand nothing" he goes out.
b) fully gpl
c) we continue like now, without one who say what to do and how.
if it accept all this...ok i agree.
he's a good dev, no doubt about it, and we need devs
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I voted ignore, for obvious reasons. Un-Thesis has done nothing to network code for months other than ripping aMule stuff or applying users's patches.
About we coding the GUI... I think no comments needed.
I see that as just disrespect and ignorance.
And about the LGPL library... same answer. aMule is, and will be, GPL. Period.
I don't know if I'm a leader, but starting insults to development team 'leaders' (we don't have such shit, we vote on stuff) is not a good start.
I say Ignore.
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but the idea about the library (add: not LGPL) is good. an amule w/o GUI but the current stability
and some valgrind'ing will be perfect (for me).
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sure is good, pilot? LGPL'd library?
GUI/core separation would be very hard... I would like it too, and we can work on it... sometime, but he talks about creating a full new project. I love my mule :)
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i say ignore too, and why?
un-thesis lie a lot ..
taked stuff from our code and said: Jan 29 03:19:33 i personally don't look at amule code .. X(
called ppl using amule and talking about amule Assholes and Stupidasscunts.. 8o
user who said something about amule on his forum should show more respect, cos it's not amule forum there .. and xmule has a lot of our code .. :rolleyes:
at least.. telling such stuff like "i created the community that made amule possible" & "there would be no amule w/o me" is a PURE nonsense !
filtering the word amule to \-- another program --/ on his xmule forum .. :]
lies, lies, lies .. no way to trust someone like he..
we want aMule GPL, and not shareware ..
my 5 cents ..
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I say discuss.
I guess he wants the library to be L(esser) GPL cuz he still wants to make a (commercial) gui.
Well, I think thats oke, as long as you guys develop a free gui - one has choice. I dont care wheter there IS a commercial gui, as long as there is a free alternative.
If he earns some money with his commercial gui, he can use that (at least partially) to enhance the core (library). so that'd be good for everyone (esp the ones using the free gui, cuz there is money being trown at the core they use ;-) without them paying it)
personally, he can talk alot shit (I agree with Kry) but he, can code. why not let him do that...
Its useless to do the same things twice.
BUT discuss it:
- ask him WHY *L*GPL (if he wants a gui which is paid for, its oke, but he must agree that he will invest lets say 50% of the money/time he earns from this, into the core!)
- Ask him to (try to) be more polite... ;-)
- Tell him he must let you guys help him on the core - for example, dont let him be IN CHARGE, but just being a dev - with 1 vote, just like the others. that'd be better, I think. of course, you can tell him he'd be 'in charge' (if that is good for his ego) but he wont have more than one vote... :))
>so he must accept patches (if they are good, of course)
>stop insulting other ppl :baby:
>and start coding 8)
Now everyone can be happy:
someone is putting lots of time & energy in seperate core/gui (an aditional dev never hurts)
there is a commercial gui for a/xmule being developed, and 50% of the earnings are going to be invested in the core (money never hurts)
and you guys just continue your job (working on core & gui)
possible disadvantage:
fightings... yep, I know, Un can cause alot trouble. but hey, aren't you guys grown up, and able to ignore him, if proper, and listen, if he says good things??? you know him...
I can understand if you guys think the disadvantage is too much, and you dont trust him on working on the core, but - then you can make a deal: the core will be Lgpl, as long as everyone does what he said he'd do - if not, it'd be GPL again (so: if Un doesnt invest 50% time& money in the lib's, they will be GPL again, and of course he can't fork it "just 5 min's before". you can put that in an agreement... I think making a good agreement, putting it on paper etc is essential... I think he'll understand, there has been "some trouble in the past" ;))
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Well, superstoned, my point is Un-Thesis is not even good at coding. I'd like Madcat to post on the subject, as me and him worked together with Un on xMule.
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Hello,
I vote ignore. I dont know unthesis neither amule devs, and never mind. I m neutral in this "war"
Simply, this proposition doesnt fit the (my ?) Linux phylosophy.
aMule is under GPL, so if he wants develop over it, he take it, put credits on dev, and start as many new branches what he wants on it.
If aMule devs like the patches he will make, they take them with credits. If he like aMule devs work, he takes it with credits.
Master words in linux developpment must be coordination and cooperation, not master and servants: 1 person, 1 vote.
GPL is the king way because it protects the community against selfish devs :)
Something i dont understand: why does he need aMule devs for his project as he can do his library with starting with xmule as the main dev ?
And money will be a problem with a commercial GUI:
- 1st, it is always a cause of war between devs
- 2nd: why people would pay for a commercial GUI when an excelent free GUI exist ?? Look at the story of netscape and explorer, or realplayer and wmplayer !
- 3rd: it would be stange to see pleople paying for a GUI and often download freely copyrigthed stuff because they dont want to pay for it... The commercial viability of this kind of project is very obscur ...
the polish
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I voted ignore. I had a long conversation with him, where he made this proposal to me.
Let me explain: He has that funny idea, that he (and only HE) should be credited for xmule. He told me, he hates GPL.
Jan 29 03:14:25 ya i've discussed w/ my lawyer how i can avoid gpl issues too
No good omen. He doesn't like amule, because he thinks HE was the one who made amule "possible"
Jan 29 03:05:55 i created the community that made amule possible
Jan 29 03:06:00 i brought kry and bigbob together
Jan 29 03:06:06 i creatd much of the code you now use
Jan 29 03:06:13 and now you put me through all this shit
Jan 29 03:06:17 well i'm not stopping
Jan 29 03:06:26 and you guys are just pushing me to more extreme ends
Jan 29 03:06:52 no we are not.
Jan 29 03:08:01 i realize it's all about prestige
As far as I remember, Creteil forked amule, because Un-Thesis did not want his patches for the gui. They got into some argue / trouble and as a result of it, Kry and Creteil started amule.
Now, what I want to say, is, that Un-Thesis thinks he must get credited for his work - which is obvoiusly wrong. He had to go GPL because lmule was GPL because emule is GPL. I think, if he wants to get credited, he must create a new ed2k client FROM SCRATCH and use another license. and leaving us the gui
Jan 29 02:26:15 it's simple really
Jan 29 02:26:18 really fucking simple
Jan 29 02:26:51 you put me in charge of the protocol library and you guys can do what you want w/ the gui
Jan 29 02:27:03 xmule and amule guis will still exist only on a shared library
Jan 29 02:27:34 the library specs would use an opensource corss-platform socket+thread library other than wx but would not be
an exe but a library
Jan 29 02:27:46 the library would be lgpl'd
Jan 29 02:28:00 of course this won't happen
Jan 29 02:28:09 you'll find the amule devs quite unresponsive
Jan 29 02:28:12 at least the leaders
is an offense. For me at least, this sounds like "give these amule children something they can play with and I do the real important stuff"
This also looks like he wants to be in control of the library. this means, when he ever realises his commercial *mule, and puts something in the protocol lib that the commercial mule has special rights, we can not change that. And I do not like that idea.
So, I'd say: Un-Thesis, you have xmule, we have amule, the team that does better work wins. You can do what you want with your client, you can have a non-democratic team, you may be the "leader" - but leave us with amule. We have a fine team (TEAM!) here, we do not lie to each other, you know we have troubles too but we are a TEAM. And, looking at the growing community, we have done good work.
Thanks.
Citroklar
found some more things:
Jan 29 03:14:46 what's wrong with gpl?
Jan 29 03:14:52 amule
Jan 29 03:20:39 YOU take the credits for anyone else's work!
Jan 29 03:20:47 not fair I think
Jan 29 03:20:56 naw i wouldn't
Jan 29 03:21:05 i haven't
Jan 29 03:21:14 well not much :)
and
Jan 29 03:19:33 i personally don't look at amule code
quote from the xmule changelog:
Version 1.7.1
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2003/11/21
Un-Thesis' Contributions:
* Implemented nearly 100% of aMule-1,1,2's network modifications that worked.
I think I don't have to comment on that.
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Originally posted by Citroklar
He had to go GPL because lmule was GPL because emule is GPL. I think, if he wants to get credited, he must create a new ed2k client FROM SCRATCH and use another license.
Well, I don't know about GPL and LGPL so much in detail, but I think that's true, so there would be no way using eMule sources anymore - not acceptable.
This also looks like he wants to be in control of the library. this means, when he ever realises his commercial *mule, and puts something in the protocol lib that the commercial mule has special rights, we can not change that. And I do not like that idea.
Yepp, that's what I fear, too.
For these two reasons I voted "ignore", not counting any personal opinion about Un that makes me think it's impossible to work together with him.
Ciao, pure_ascii.
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IŽm no dev, just a user, but I followed his escapades for a long time.
I voted for telling him to stop saying bullshit Žcause thatŽs what he does! Just look at the xmule homepage! My personal opinion is that you canŽt trust him. IŽm afraid sooner or later he causes trouble again and fools you. So get rid of this kiddy!
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I voted 'ignore', which I suppose means to turn it down.
The reason is that the majority of the current team can't cooperate with Unthesis,
some even hate him. Therefore I see problems in the case where amule would
depend on a library that is maintained by Unthesis alone.
Technically the idea of having a standalone library that does the e-donkey protocol is appealing. It is sad that things have to go this way and cooperation is not possible.
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I voted "Ignore" -- what hopefully means to tell him politely that aMule users and devs are not interested -- because
[list=1]
- From what I read Un-Thesis doesn't understand much of the *Mule file-sharing network. I fear that the combined project might end as a leecher client.
- We'll end up arguing about things instead of developing, partially due to Un-Thesis special way to evalute other peoples contributions. This already happend in the xmule irc channel.
- A seperate core/GUI client is already on it's way althought I would personally prefer a common libary instead of a commandline core.
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I voted "Accept it". Why? I believe the guy is a good and obviously experienced coder. He can only improve the client, not make it worst. Also, the more developers (experienced ones)- the better.
Do I believe you should change the license? Telling you the truth, I don't really care... As a user, as long as I'm not affected by the licensing of the code, I won't even look at the license once.
Do I think you should "assign" the protocol to him only? Maybe. Assigning tasks for each developer is a good thing for a project. Of course, if Kry or any other developer wants to add some protocol code or improve it, he (or other developer) should certainly be allowed. Look at the ShareDaemon project for a great example of tasks assigning (Madcat-wxInterface; bothie-Core; etc...).
HopeSeekr obviously cares about the client and the community. It looks like he's constantly trying to work things out with you guys. Lower your "shields" and give the idea of working together with him another chance. Who knows.... you might find out that you did something great. ;)
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Originally posted by Avi
HopeSeekr obviously cares about the client and the community.
hi Avi, u know it's not the truth ..
Originally posted by Un-Thesis on xMule forum
Thus, if you a) keep file browsing off, and discontinuing sharing of the file as soon as uploading has finished, you will be safe.
a dev? no no .. a leecher ..
greets
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Hey deltaHF,
Originally posted by deltaHF
Originally posted by Avi
HopeSeekr obviously cares about the client and the community.
hi Avi, u know it's not the truth ..
Originally posted by Un-Thesis on xMule forum
Thus, if you a) keep file browsing off, and discontinuing sharing of the file as soon as uploading has finished, you will be safe.
a dev? no no .. a leecher ..
greets
I've already read that post. You took the words out of their context.
You cannot possibly believe that he doesn't care about the community. He sticked around for a long time now. He helped many many people in the xMule forums with problems they had with the client. Just look around a few monthes ago in the xMule forums. Him and Madcat did a wonderful job as a team back then... He obviously wants to work with you guys. He's a professional developer, you cannot deny that. I see no reason why the two projects shouldn't work *together* (as a team). Having two projects is plainly inefficient.
And anyway, why not TRY? This is an open source community. Nobody here forces anyone to do anything they don't want to. If you won't like working together again, you can always return to today's situation (two separate projects).
Kind regards,
Avi
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Well, I personally hate Un-Thesis, I do also agree with Avi. He can join and maybe he can improve aMule. If it becames a problem (in any way starting from creating comminity divisions or starts to give orders or whatever else) he go away. STOP.
Regarding his ideas about CORE/GUI, I like the idea, but maybe not possible for aMule; and also he must be crazy thinking that he will be the only one coding the "protocol library"... Disagree also about LGPL.
Anyhow I voted "accept"
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Hm, we'r back at the Un-Thesis topic? Thought that topic was closed several months ago! No wait, now he's the good guy who wants to join the aMule dev team and be friend to all again? Hm, why does it sound familiar?
Let me take you a while back, to July/August 2003.
"The weather is getting colder slowly, and the tensions between former xMule development team are getting hotter. Un-Thesis has announced that he is creating a brand new core/gui separated (with networking code as library) client for ed2k network. The client will be propiretory ($5-$10 per month) and will receive instant Queue Ranking #1 from any other xMule clients. He also requests that I, who was the xMule project maintainer at the time) would add some lines of code into xMule that would provide that QR1 engine. I never gave him a direct answer, because I already had different plans at the time. The plans are now more known as the ShareDaemon project. He's behaviour at the time could be described as follows: rude towards users, agressive towards fellow developers, and kick/banning from IRC any future developers who seemed to have a clue (2 BSD devs come to mind).
Once we started the ShareDaemon project with Mikael and bothie (known as xmule2 at the time), Un-Thesis sensed a threat and suddenly became "good" again. He was respectful/friendly to (almost) everyone and most people bought it. Several people told me that I should forgive him and we should try to get along and so on and so forth. Even Mikael and bothie weren't so eager to forking anymore. However, I understood that a person can not change so fast, so I "disappeared". I went "AFK" and never returned. In fact, I was afk for 2 days, but then returned and simply watched. And what did I see?
First 2-3 days, he was keeping up the Good-Thesis thingie, however, after that he seemed to get tired of it... and, as was not hard to guess, by the 5th day, he was back @ the old level of hostility, rudeness, you name it. He insulted MikaelB so badly that he was about to completely quit anything xmule-related - I only managed to convince him to keep on coding provided we fork - which we did shortly afterwards."
Now, what is the moral of the story? Personality does not change. A person does not change. Un-Thesis has proved to be able to switch personality on runtime at light-speeds. On one moment, he wants to create a $$$mule(tm) and on second moment, he wants to help improve the Free Software and starts quoting "Cathedral and Bazaar". (http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/)
Which brings us right to the topic at hand. Most people in this thread know Un-Thesis' personality, some people buy into his moods. Eventually, its up to each person to decide what to make of it. I did not vote on the issue, because I believe this issue has been discussed and closed previously, and there is no further discussion/voting on the topic "Un-Thesis and his moods" needed. However, I would like to comment some of the other peoples posts in this thread.
you'll find the amule devs quite unresponsive
at least the leaders
Are you sure you would like to work in a team from day to day with a person with this attitude?
Originally posted by Hetfield
he's a good dev, no doubt about it, and we need devs
I'd like to argue on this. On both of the statements. First of all, what makes a good free software developer? Coding skills? Lets take a look at Un-Thesis' skills profile (http://sourceforge.net/people/viewprofile.php?user_id=23127) on SourceForge:
Skill Level Experience
SQL Wrote The Book 2 yr - 5 yr
C/C++ Competent 5 yr - 10 yr
Perl Wizard 2 yr - 5 yr
PHP Wizard 2 yr - 5 yr
Java Competent 2 yr - 5 yr
French Competent > 10 years
UNIX Admin Wrote It 5 yr - 10 yr
Writing Wrote The Book 5 yr - 10 yr
Python Competent 6 Mo - 2 yr
Visual Basic Wrote The Book 5 yr - 10 yr
HTML/DHTML Wizard 5 yr - 10 yrClearly, he has superior coding knowledge in all and every area of software development known to mankind. Does this make him a good developer? I think not. I believe the termin "good free software developer" has something to do with "community", "friendship" and "teamwork", and the actual skills are completely secondary. I myself joined the LMule team in March 2003 without any c++ knowledge whatsoever. I had just finished installing Linux for the first time, and pure_ascii @ #lmule channel was more helpful than ppl at #linuxhelp. And look at where I am a year from there? The lack of knowledge has never hindered software developers. Lack of teamwork and community, however, have.
Originally posted by Kry
GUI/core separation would be very hard... I would like it too, and we can work on it... sometime, but he talks about creating a full new project.
I don't want to advertise the ShareDaemon project again, but I am forced to say that there already is a core/gui separated project in progress. However, since nobody believes in us, we are in serious lack of developers, and thus progressing slowly. Why you want to start separating the aMule codebase beats me, as even eMule developers have said its unfeasible/not worth the effort.
Originally posted by superstoned
personally, he can talk alot shit (I agree with Kry) but he, can code. why not let him do that...
Un-Thesis seems to be a kind of person who talks much, but says nothing. Back in summer, he started his own core/gui rewrite. Silently, w/o commiting code to CVS. No wait, he did commit code - he commited his 2 months coding worth of gui code. And what was it? It was only dialog's resources drawn in xrced or some other wxWindows dialog editor. Not even page changing engine, which was the first big thing I spent lot time on in ShareDaemon wxInterface. Furthermore - It took me one week to get the ShareDaemon wxInterface to the point which had taken Un-Thesis roughly two months (and - before you ask - no, I did not copy his code, I used completely different technique). Now consider that I'm a complete newbie C++ coder, and he's a C++ guru with 5-10yr experience, according to his SourceForge profile.
Originally posted by superstoned
- Ask him to (try to) be more polite... ;-)
Perhaps you could do it? I believe everyone else has already tried... with zero success I might add.
Originally posted by superstoned
fightings... yep, I know, Un can cause alot trouble. but hey, aren't you guys grown up, and able to ignore him, if proper, and listen, if he says good things??? you know him...
About 10 people have tried it already, its your turn now - give it a shot.
Originally posted by Un-Thesis
Jan 29 03:05:55 i created the community that made amule possible
Excuse my rudeness, but Mr. HopeSeekr doesn't even know the meaning of community.
Originally posted by Un-Thesis
Jan 29 03:06:06 i creatd much of the code you now use
Keep telling yourself that. Good that at least one person believes it, the rest of the world knows who truly should be credited (Merkur, Tiku).
Originally posted by Citroklar
So, I'd say: Un-Thesis, you have xmule, we have amule, the team that does better work wins.
Well, I would have thought everyone understands by now that Un-Thesis doesn't like competition - There must be only one program, and he must be the only admin of it. Everyone else should just shut up and follow his lead. And - don't forget - never question his decisions, he's the master coder and us lesser minds simply can't grasp his genius ideas. So - just go back to your c++ tutorials and stay out of his highness's way.
Originally posted by carlo
Technically the idea of having a standalone library that does the e-donkey protocol is appealing. It is sad that things have to go this way and cooperation is not possible.
Originally posted by seneca
A seperate core/GUI client is already on it's way althought I would personally prefer a common libary instead of a commandline core.
There is one major reason why the core must be a separate application rather than a loadable library. As separate application, the entire project design is far more flexible than when using a library, and is far more extendable. And besides - why on earth should the core be a library? Libraries usually provide interfaces to something, however, right here we'r talking about an application. Anyway - I'm not too good at explaining this (remember - I'm the linux n00b who just learned C++).
Originally posted by Avi
I believe the guy is a good and obviously experienced coder.
I analyzed this topic few pages above, and I'd like to repeat my question: Is he really? What has he done to prove it? A nonworking $$$mule interface? Some bugfixes? Hell - even Creteil can do more, and Creteil is really n00b in C++ (no offence meant Creteil - just quoting your own words).
Originally posted by Avi
Also, the more developers (experienced ones)- the better.
It is the QUALITY that matters, not the QUANTITY. As for measuring the quality of Un-Thesis' as software developer, see few pages above where I discussed his skills and what makes a good coder.
Originally posted by Avi
Do I believe you should change the license? Telling you the truth, I don't really care... As a user, as long as I'm not affected by the licensing of the code, I won't even look at the license once.
Relicencing source code is first step towards other things that will start affecting the end-user. Thus, you should be very much concerned about relicencing issues, because, while it does not affect you today, it will affect you in a month or two months. Think about the future.
Originally posted by Avi
Do I think you should "assign" the protocol to him only? Maybe. Assigning tasks for each developer is a good thing for a project. Of course, if Kry or any other developer wants to add some protocol code or improve it, he (or other developer) should certainly be allowed.
I believe it was attempted once during xMule project already - at that time, Un-Thesis was writing xMule Pro, interface to be correct. And in 2 months he could produce only something that experineced wxWindows developer can create in one day. And now you want to assign him to the core? Take a minute and think about it.
Originally posted by Avi
HopeSeekr obviously cares about the client and the community.
Please, show me some examples. Perhaps you'r referring to where he tells newbies to "use the fucking search button", or perhaps where he went to eMule forums and claimed they imported HIS memleak fix and never gave credit (thread deleted in eMule forums)? Or perhaps when he went to eMule devs and claimed they stole HIS sechash engine w/o giving credit? [thread] (http://forum.emule-project.net/index.php?showtopic=22963&hl=) Or perhaps when he got into flamewar with 13 jews for over 4 hours in row and ended it with banning them from his firewall (which was running at his box at the time) and DDoSing them? Yes, I'd say Un-Thesis really cares about the community and this project - I mean - he's the heart of this community, w/o him we would be happily coding instead of spending hours and hours and hours writing in forums about him.
Originally posted by Avi
And anyway, why not TRY? This is an open source community. Nobody here forces anyone to do anything they don't want to. If you won't like working together again, you can always return to today's situation (two separate projects).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the aMule project was created because people had TRIED to work with Un-Thesis, and FAILED to do so, and thus the ONLY option was to leave the project and start new project. They did everything in their power to get AWAY from Un-Thesis, and now? Take him back? Hm... Interesting idea - yes, lets repeat it again... let him join, let xMule project fade away just like LMule project did, and in 3 months, lets fork again, this time to "nutMule" - "No Un-Thesis Mule". And just keep on forking like that every 3 months, until all ***mule names are used up, and then what?
Originally posted by Frankk
Well, I personally hate Un-Thesis,
I see no reason to hate him. Hate is a completely different word. Personally, I respect him as a human, he has the same rights as everyone else, however, I do not approve his development techniques and I believe he should seek psychiatric help. Other than that... well, he's only human too. Just a bit strange one.
Madcat.
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I voted ignore.
Reasons:
Some developers already tried to get along with un-thesis before - resulting in a complete loss of the xMule development team.
Far more important for me is simply the reason why people do something. In this case just answer the question "why do you spend time on developing aMule"?
If the answer is something like "see aMule as a beta test for a commercial application" i don't want to wait till it gets there.
Even if it's possible to develop 2 applications based on the same sources, the idea of earning money and reputation will always create problems. Sooner or later there will be features which will be available in the payed version only and developers that focus on fixing problems for paying users. That will surely divide the aMule project into 2 or more "new" forks - free and payed in seperate apps.
Thats clearly nothing i'd like to happen.
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IŽve folloed the xMule and aMule development quite a while now and IŽve read posts and code from Un-Thesis as well as those from Kry et.al.
As a professional software engineer, I have to say that the work of all coders is quite good, keeping in mind that all the work is done as a hobby, not for money. Having that said, I really would like to see Un-Thesis as a contributor to the project, at least because he is familiar with the code and the project.
BUT: I dont want to see him as a leading coordinator for a major part of the client. This is just because IŽve been following many of his posts in several discussions and I dont think he is really able to work with and for a team. He prefers to do his own job while ignoring others. This is not what the project needs.
So for the current "offer" of his, I voted ignore. But if heŽs willing to contribute to the code as a "normal" coder, he schould be welcome.
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Hm.
BUT: I dont want to see him as a leading coordinator for a major part of the client. This is just because IŽve been following many of his posts in several discussions and I dont think he is really able to work with and for a team. He prefers to do his own job while ignoring others. This is not what the project needs.
Lets cut this part down:
I dont think he is really able to work with and for a team.
Depending on what i've read before - i agree, but reading further...
But if heŽs willing to contribute to the code as a "normal" coder, he schould be welcome.
So how can he be a part of a team if he's unable to work with/for it?
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@bootstrap:
What I wanted to state is: from his quotes in the first message of this thread and lot of old posts of his, I dont think he is a team-worker.
BUT if he changes his behaviour and he is willing to contribute to a team of equals, he deserves a chance.
To be honest, I really hate the whole xMule/aMule bashing, its not worth the time IMHO. And to make things clear, I never had a personal fight with Un.
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@lemonfan: i get your point, but i don't know if it's worth the effort.
The easy way would have been contributing to aMule. That would have shown he's interested. Instead he still talks like everybody who wants aMule to prosper depends on his good will.
My opinion is - let him do what ever he wants.
I don't think there should be made a decision like banning him. We should just wait if he tries to do something useful instead of talking. Opensource projects need developers - a helping hand that contributes useful code, can help a lot - but not at the cost of freedom and/or fair teamplay.
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Originally posted by MadcatOriginally posted by Frankk
Well, I personally hate Un-Thesis,
I see no reason to hate him. Hate is a completely different word. Personally, I respect him as a human, he has the same rights as everyone else, however, I do not approve his development techniques and I believe he should seek psychiatric help. Other than that... well, he's only human too. Just a bit strange one.
Yes, hate is a big word and I think that in this world there is nobody that I really hate, I just had to say that I don't like his behaviour... that's all. I still agree that he should be allowed to join aMule team (I wouldn't if I really hated him). Everyone have the right to have a second opportunity (and a third and a fourth...).
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Originally posted by Un-Thesis today on #wxwindows
madcat
kry
hetfield
all here cuz of xmule
no
i'm here cuz amule
.....
HopeSeekr you wanna join amule?
start writing some good patches
start being a normal dev without insulting ppl (yes i read the logs)
would i have to converse regularly w/ kry or bigbob?
why should i...project founder for over a year, become a patcher to amule?
it seems like i would lose a lot, no?
from forum owner to nobody?
etc
.....
i'm just really glad my work has promoted wx so much :)
.....
programs deriving from my efforts (lmule, xmule, amule) are the most popular wxapplications for linux that i know of
should we say :baby:
i see there only ME and I X(
dear mr Un-Thesis, or HopeSeekr, again and again: YOU are not the only person on the whole world who did everything..!!
this is the problem leadership
http://www.amule.org/amule/thread.php?threadid=835&sid=
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Originally posted by bootstrap
My opinion is - let him do what ever he wants.
This sounds like an excellent summary of what I'd also consider a good
approach for dealing with this situation.
On the technical side: I agree that separating the GUI from the protocol
engine makes a lot of sense: it should be much easier to get a program
without direct user interaction stable, one can use better and automated
test procedures, data structures can be chosen for efficiency, not GUI
constraints, etc. In fact, I'd consider the close integration with the GUI
the most important technical flaw of the mules.
Whether this appears as a library or as some IPC interface, is mainly a
question of taste. Of course, it makes perfect sense to put the actual
engine into a separate process, in order to allow it to run without GUI,
to protect it from bugs in the GUI code, and also to have more freedom
in implementing event loops, synchronization, and such.
On the licensing side: changing licenses while in the middle of a project
is hard. In particular, you can't go from GPL to LGPL, unless all
copyright holders agree. Fortunately, you can go from LGPL to GPL
(see section 3 of the LGPL).
I wouldn't be particularly worried about picking the LGPL. Since the
main interface of the protocol engine would probably be something
message-based anyway, it would be messy (although possible) to
try to place major restrictions on the use of that interface. A library that
translates this interface to something more convenient would both be
simple to implement, and easy to replace with something under a
different license. (Well, unless you're going to patent it :-)
On the "team player" side: some people simply don't interact well with
other people. This doesn't mean that they can't be useful in a project,
quite to the contrary. You just have to make sure everybody accepts
the constraints this imposes. E.g. if you have more than one developer
who anxiously defends his territory, and these territories overlap,
you'll quickly end up spending more time with fights than with coding.
Of course, this might still be great fun to watch.
Also, adding more manpower to a project usually makes the project
slower, not faster, because communication overhead increases
exponentially with the number of people, and some tasks are difficult
to share among several people, particularly if they're not exactly
soul mates.
Unfortunately, all this not only about technical skills. Sometimes,
people cling to a position because of financial reasons, because they
covet the prestige that goes with it, because they fear that, if they
changed their mind and did anything else, people would think less of
them, etc.
Keeping people apart isn't as bad as it may sound, particularly if
they already work best if alone and undisturbed. Also, even if this
means to redo major parts of a project from scratch, this isn't
necessarily bad: once you understand what the parts are, and how
they should interact, the actual implementation usually feels easy
(it may still take a while to do the typing, though :-). Also, code
written by one or a small number of developers will have a more
consistent structure and bugs will be easier to eliminate (plus there
will be fewer misunderstanding or problems because of working
with structures one is less familiar with).
So I'd suggest to try to get a rough understanding of an interface
between GUI and protocol engine, then let people work on their
parts, and not worry about overlaps. Particularly in the Open Source
world, people work best on things they understand and that they care
about. If there are mayor missing elements, somebody will probably
eventually be sufficiently annoyed about them that they start to care,
so the problem solves itself. (We have to show at least some
optimism, right ? :-)
Well, this summarizes a bit of my experience with such things. My
own approach is to either stay out of the battles, or to assume a
key role. So I can sympathize somewhat with Un-Thesis' position.
However, I also try not to step too often on other peoples' toes.
- Werner
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(HopeSeekr@adsl-68-88-233-130.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) has joined #wxwindows
since this is the unofficial amule channel...
http://xmule.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=1208&st=0#entry6306
i just have to get this out now (been wanting to do this for a few hours now) YOU STUPID ASS CUNT MUTHERFUCKERS! I HATE YOU! -- directed at no one in particular
no comment and i think no need to vote anymore ppl ..
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Originally posted by deltaHF
no comment and i think no need to vote anymore ppl ..
indeed. - argh, wot an a..hole...(http://bilder.parsimony.net/smilies/feuer.gif)
i would have much comments on this, but then i should delete my own posting, argh...
think, he's shown his real face once more again...
cu
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I say Ignore too.
No good reasons to invite Un-Thesis in the aMule team.
Really no good reasons to change the status of Kry or DeltaHF (no!!).
You're making a fu**ing good job !! so why changes ? to make truble ?
So, go on, without listening the lies ;)
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Voted Ignore
I don't think a guy like this can be good on a GPL project.
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Wow. Old topic, new votes. ;)
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just ignore him... as good as he may be as developer... the damage he could do the project if he is in charge for a common library is much bigger than what you can earn...
He has a big problem with his personality, so if you negotiate with him you will just strengthen his position and make it worse...
I guess if you force him to put the copyright back in all the code he has taken from amule so people will realize that his glorious xmule, whatever it may have been before, is now just a badly maintaint version of amule, they will drop xmule and use amule.
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Originally posted by Kry
Wow. Old topic, new votes. ;)
why not... new month...same old stories about unthesis ^^