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Author Topic: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team  (Read 38684 times)

deltaHF

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Re: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2004, 09:22:38 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by Avi

HopeSeekr obviously cares about the client and the community.

hi Avi, u know it's not the truth ..

Quote
Originally posted by Un-Thesis on xMule forum

Thus, if you a) keep file browsing off, and  discontinuing sharing of the file as soon as uploading has finished, you will be safe.

a dev? no no .. a leecher ..

greets

Avi

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Re: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2004, 09:53:00 PM »

Hey deltaHF,

Quote
Originally posted by deltaHF
Quote
Originally posted by Avi

HopeSeekr obviously cares about the client and the community.

hi Avi, u know it's not the truth ..

Quote
Originally posted by Un-Thesis on xMule forum

Thus, if you a) keep file browsing off, and  discontinuing sharing of the file as soon as uploading has finished, you will be safe.

a dev? no no .. a leecher ..

greets
I've already read that post. You took the words out of their context.

You cannot possibly believe that he doesn't care about the community. He sticked around for a long time now. He helped many many people in the xMule forums with problems they had with the client. Just look around a few monthes ago in the xMule forums. Him and Madcat did a wonderful job as a team back then... He obviously wants to work with you guys. He's a professional developer, you cannot deny that. I see no reason why the two projects shouldn't work *together* (as a team). Having two projects is plainly inefficient.

And anyway, why not TRY? This is an open source community. Nobody here forces anyone to do anything they don't want to. If you won't like working together again, you can always return to today's situation (two separate projects).

Kind regards,
Avi
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Frankk

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Re: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2004, 10:25:12 PM »

Well, I personally hate Un-Thesis, I do also agree with Avi. He can join and maybe he can improve aMule. If it becames a problem (in any way starting from creating comminity divisions or starts to give orders or whatever else) he go away. STOP.

Regarding his ideas about CORE/GUI, I like the idea, but maybe not possible for aMule; and also he must be crazy thinking that he will be the only one coding the "protocol library"... Disagree also about LGPL.

Anyhow I voted "accept"
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Madcat

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Re: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2004, 11:04:42 PM »

Hm, we'r back at the Un-Thesis topic? Thought that topic was closed several months ago! No wait, now he's the good guy who wants to join the aMule dev team and be friend to all again? Hm, why does it sound familiar?

Let me take you a while back, to July/August 2003.

"The weather is getting colder slowly, and the tensions between former xMule development team are getting hotter. Un-Thesis has announced that he is creating a brand new core/gui separated (with networking code as library) client for ed2k network. The client will be propiretory ($5-$10 per month) and will receive instant Queue Ranking #1 from any other xMule clients. He also requests that I, who was the xMule project maintainer at the time) would add some lines of code into xMule that would provide that QR1 engine. I never gave him a direct answer, because I already had different plans at the time. The plans are now more known as the ShareDaemon project. He's behaviour at the time could be described as follows: rude towards users, agressive towards fellow developers, and kick/banning from IRC any future developers who seemed to have a clue (2 BSD devs come to mind).

Once we started the ShareDaemon project with Mikael and bothie (known as xmule2 at the time), Un-Thesis sensed a threat and suddenly became "good" again. He was respectful/friendly to (almost) everyone and most people bought it. Several people told me that I should forgive him and we should try to get along and so on and so forth. Even Mikael and bothie weren't so eager to forking anymore. However, I understood that a person can not change so fast, so I "disappeared". I went "AFK" and never returned. In fact, I was afk for 2 days, but then returned and simply watched. And what did I see?

First 2-3 days, he was keeping up the Good-Thesis thingie, however, after that he seemed to get tired of it... and, as was not hard to guess, by the 5th day, he was back @ the old level of hostility, rudeness, you name it. He insulted MikaelB so badly that he was about to completely quit anything xmule-related - I only managed to convince him to keep on coding provided we fork - which we did shortly afterwards."


Now, what is the moral of the story? Personality does not change. A person does not change. Un-Thesis has proved to be able to switch personality on runtime at light-speeds. On one moment, he wants to create a $$$mule(tm) and on second moment, he wants to help improve the Free Software and starts quoting "Cathedral and Bazaar".

Which brings us right to the topic at hand. Most people in this thread know Un-Thesis' personality, some people buy into his moods. Eventually, its up to each person to decide what to make of it. I did not vote on the issue, because I believe this issue has been discussed and closed previously, and there is no further discussion/voting on the topic "Un-Thesis and his moods" needed. However, I would like to comment some of the other peoples posts in this thread.

Quote
you'll find the amule devs quite unresponsive
at least the leaders
Are you sure you would like to work in a team from day to day with a person with this attitude?

Quote
Originally posted by Hetfield
he's a good dev, no doubt about it, and we need devs
I'd like to argue on this. On both of the statements. First of all, what makes a good free software developer? Coding skills? Lets take a look at Un-Thesis' skills profile on SourceForge:
Code: [Select]
Skill          Level   Experience
SQL         Wrote The Book 2 yr - 5 yr
C/C++       Competent 5 yr - 10 yr
Perl Wizard 2 yr - 5 yr
PHP Wizard 2 yr - 5 yr
Java Competent 2 yr - 5 yr
French Competent > 10 years
UNIX Admin Wrote It 5 yr - 10 yr
Writing Wrote The Book 5 yr - 10 yr
Python Competent 6 Mo - 2 yr
Visual Basic Wrote The Book 5 yr - 10 yr
HTML/DHTML Wizard 5 yr - 10 yr
Clearly, he has superior coding knowledge in all and every area of software development known to mankind. Does this make him a good developer? I think not. I believe the termin "good free software developer" has something to do with "community", "friendship" and "teamwork", and the actual skills are completely secondary. I myself joined the LMule team in March 2003 without any c++ knowledge whatsoever. I had just finished installing Linux for the first time, and pure_ascii @ #lmule channel was more helpful than ppl at #linuxhelp. And look at where I am a year from there? The lack of knowledge has never hindered software developers. Lack of teamwork and community, however, have.

Quote
Originally posted by Kry
GUI/core separation would be very hard... I would like it too, and we can work on it... sometime, but he talks about creating a full new project.
I don't want to advertise the ShareDaemon project again, but I am forced to say that there already is a core/gui separated project in progress. However, since nobody believes in us, we are in serious lack of developers, and thus progressing slowly. Why you want to start separating the aMule codebase beats me, as even eMule developers have said its unfeasible/not worth the effort.

Quote
Originally posted by superstoned
personally, he can talk alot shit (I agree with Kry) but he, can code. why not let him do that...
Un-Thesis seems to be a kind of person who talks much, but says nothing. Back in summer, he started his own core/gui rewrite. Silently, w/o commiting code to CVS. No wait, he did commit code - he commited his 2 months coding worth of gui code. And what was it? It was only dialog's resources drawn in xrced or some other wxWindows dialog editor. Not even page changing engine, which was the first big thing I spent lot time on in ShareDaemon wxInterface. Furthermore - It took me one week to get the ShareDaemon wxInterface to the point which had taken Un-Thesis roughly two months (and - before you ask - no, I did not copy his code, I used completely different technique). Now consider that I'm a complete newbie C++ coder, and he's a C++ guru with 5-10yr experience, according to his SourceForge profile.

Quote
Originally posted by superstoned
- Ask him to (try to) be more polite... ;-)
Perhaps you could do it? I believe everyone else has already tried... with zero success I might add.

Quote
Originally posted by superstoned
fightings... yep, I know, Un can cause alot trouble. but hey, aren't you guys grown up, and able to ignore him, if proper, and listen, if he says good things??? you know him...
About 10 people have tried it already, its your turn now - give it a shot.

Quote
Originally posted by Un-Thesis
Jan 29 03:05:55 i created the community that made amule possible
Excuse my rudeness, but Mr. HopeSeekr doesn't even know the meaning of community.

Quote
Originally posted by Un-Thesis
Jan 29 03:06:06 i creatd much of the code you now use
Keep telling yourself that. Good that at least one person believes it, the rest of the world knows who truly should be credited (Merkur, Tiku).

Quote
Originally posted by Citroklar
So, I'd say: Un-Thesis, you have xmule, we have amule, the team that does better work wins.
Well, I would have thought everyone understands by now that Un-Thesis doesn't like competition - There must be only one program, and he must be the only admin of it. Everyone else should just shut up and follow his lead. And - don't forget - never question his decisions, he's the master coder and us lesser minds simply can't grasp his genius ideas. So - just go back to your c++ tutorials and stay out of his highness's way.

Quote
Originally posted by carlo
Technically the idea of having a standalone library that does the e-donkey protocol is appealing. It is sad that things have to go this way and cooperation is not possible.
Quote
Originally posted by seneca
A seperate core/GUI client is already on it's way althought I would personally prefer a common libary instead of a commandline core.
There is one major reason why the core must be a separate application rather than a loadable library. As separate application, the entire project design is far more flexible than when using a library, and is far more extendable. And besides - why on earth should the core be a library? Libraries usually provide interfaces to something, however, right here we'r talking about an application. Anyway - I'm not too good at explaining this (remember - I'm the linux n00b who just learned C++).

Quote
Originally posted by Avi
I believe the guy is a good and obviously experienced coder.
I analyzed this topic few pages above, and I'd like to repeat my question: Is he really? What has he done to prove it? A nonworking $$$mule interface? Some bugfixes? Hell - even Creteil can do more, and Creteil is really n00b in C++ (no offence meant Creteil - just quoting your own words).

Quote
Originally posted by Avi
Also, the more developers (experienced ones)- the better.
It is the QUALITY that matters, not the QUANTITY. As for measuring the quality of Un-Thesis' as software developer, see few pages above where I discussed his skills and what makes a good coder.

Quote
Originally posted by Avi
Do I believe you should change the license? Telling you the truth, I don't really care... As a user, as long as I'm not affected by the licensing of the code, I won't even look at the license once.
Relicencing source code is first step towards other things that will start affecting the end-user. Thus, you should be very much concerned about relicencing issues, because, while it does not affect you today, it will affect you in a month or two months. Think about the future.

Quote
Originally posted by Avi
Do I think you should "assign" the protocol to him only? Maybe. Assigning tasks for each developer is a good thing for a project. Of course, if Kry or any other developer wants to add some protocol code or improve it, he (or other developer) should certainly be allowed.
I believe it was attempted once during xMule project already - at that time, Un-Thesis was writing xMule Pro, interface to be correct. And in 2 months he could produce only something that experineced wxWindows developer can create in one day. And now you want to assign him to the core? Take a minute and think about it.

Quote
Originally posted by Avi
HopeSeekr obviously cares about the client and the community.
Please, show me some examples. Perhaps you'r referring to where he tells newbies to "use the fucking search button", or perhaps where he went to eMule forums and claimed they imported HIS memleak fix and never gave credit (thread deleted in eMule forums)? Or perhaps when he went to eMule devs and claimed they stole HIS sechash engine w/o giving credit? [thread] Or perhaps when he got into flamewar with 13 jews for over 4 hours in row and ended it with banning them from his firewall (which was running at his box at the time) and DDoSing them? Yes, I'd say Un-Thesis really cares about the community and this project - I mean - he's the heart of this community, w/o him we would be happily coding instead of spending hours and hours and hours writing in forums about him.

Quote
Originally posted by Avi
And anyway, why not TRY? This is an open source community. Nobody here forces anyone to do anything they don't want to. If you won't like working together again, you can always return to today's situation (two separate projects).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the aMule project was created because people had TRIED to work with Un-Thesis, and FAILED to do so, and thus the ONLY option was to leave the project and start new project. They did everything in their power to get AWAY from Un-Thesis, and now? Take him back? Hm... Interesting idea - yes, lets repeat it again... let him join, let xMule project fade away just like LMule project did, and in 3 months, lets fork again, this time to "nutMule" - "No Un-Thesis Mule". And just keep on forking like that every 3 months, until all ***mule names are used up, and then what?

Quote
Originally posted by Frankk
Well, I personally hate Un-Thesis,
I see no reason to hate him. Hate is a completely different word. Personally, I respect him as a human, he has the same rights as everyone else, however, I do not approve his development techniques and I believe he should seek psychiatric help. Other than that... well, he's only human too. Just a bit strange one.

Madcat.
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bootstrap

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RE: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2004, 10:40:42 AM »

I voted ignore.

Reasons:
Some developers already tried to get along with un-thesis before - resulting in a complete loss of the xMule development team.
Far more important for me is simply the reason why people do something. In this case just answer the question "why do you spend time on developing aMule"?
If the answer is something like "see aMule as a beta test for a commercial application" i don't want to wait till it gets there.
Even if it's possible to develop 2 applications based on the same sources, the idea of earning money and reputation will always create problems. Sooner or later there will be features which will be available in the payed version only and developers that focus on fixing problems for paying users. That will surely divide the aMule project into 2 or more "new" forks - free and payed in seperate apps.
Thats clearly nothing i'd like to happen.
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lemonfan

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Re: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2004, 11:20:18 AM »

IŽve folloed the xMule and aMule development quite a while now and IŽve read posts and code from Un-Thesis as well as those from Kry et.al.

As a professional software engineer, I have to say that the work of all coders is quite good, keeping in mind that all the work is done as a hobby, not for money. Having that said, I really would like to see Un-Thesis as a contributor to the project, at least because he is familiar with the code and the project.

BUT: I dont want to see him as a leading coordinator for a major part of the client. This is just because IŽve been following many of his posts in several discussions and I dont think he is really able to work with and for a team. He prefers to do his own job while ignoring others. This is not what the project needs.

So for the current "offer" of his, I voted ignore. But if heŽs willing to contribute to the code as a "normal" coder, he schould be welcome.
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bootstrap

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Re: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2004, 11:56:56 AM »

Hm.
Quote
BUT: I dont want to see him as a leading coordinator for a major part of the client. This is just because IŽve been following many of his posts in several discussions and I dont think he is really able to work with and for a team. He prefers to do his own job while ignoring others. This is not what the project needs.
Lets cut this part down:
Quote
I dont think he is really able to work with and for a team.
Depending on what i've read before - i agree, but reading further...
Quote
But if heŽs willing to contribute to the code as a "normal" coder, he schould be welcome.
So how can he be a part of a team if he's unable to work with/for it?
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lemonfan

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Re: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2004, 12:41:26 PM »

@bootstrap:

What I wanted to state is: from his quotes in the first message of this thread and lot of old posts of his, I dont think he is a team-worker.

BUT if he changes his behaviour and he is willing to contribute to a team of equals, he deserves a chance.

To be honest, I really hate the whole xMule/aMule bashing, its not worth the time IMHO. And to make things clear, I never had a personal fight with Un.
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bootstrap

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Re: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2004, 01:07:49 PM »

@lemonfan: i get your point, but i don't know if it's worth the effort.
The easy way would have been contributing to aMule. That would have shown he's interested. Instead he still talks like everybody who wants aMule to prosper depends on his good will.

My opinion is - let him do what ever he wants.

I don't think there should be made a decision like banning him. We should just wait if he tries to do something useful instead of talking. Opensource projects need developers - a helping hand that contributes useful code, can help a lot - but not at the cost of freedom and/or fair teamplay.
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Frankk

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Re: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2004, 03:21:12 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by Madcat
Quote
Originally posted by Frankk
Well, I personally hate Un-Thesis,
I see no reason to hate him. Hate is a completely different word. Personally, I respect him as a human, he has the same rights as everyone else, however, I do not approve his development techniques and I believe he should seek psychiatric help. Other than that... well, he's only human too. Just a bit strange one.
Yes, hate is a big word and I think that in this world there is nobody that I really hate, I just had to say that I don't like his behaviour... that's all. I still agree that he should be allowed to join aMule team (I wouldn't if I really hated him). Everyone have the right to have a second opportunity (and a third and a fourth...).
« Last Edit: January 30, 2004, 03:23:02 PM by Frankk »
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deltaHF

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Re: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2004, 05:33:24 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by Un-Thesis today on #wxwindows


madcat
kry
hetfield
all here cuz of xmule
no
i'm here cuz amule

.....

HopeSeekr you wanna join amule?
start writing some good patches
start being a normal dev without insulting ppl (yes i read the logs)
would i have to converse regularly w/ kry or bigbob?
why should i...project founder for over a year, become a patcher to amule?
it seems like i would lose a lot, no?
from forum owner to nobody?
etc

.....

i'm just really glad my work has promoted wx so much :)

.....

programs deriving from my efforts (lmule, xmule, amule) are the most popular wxapplications for linux that i know of

should we say  :baby:

i see there only ME and I  X(

dear mr Un-Thesis, or HopeSeekr, again and again: YOU are not the only person on the whole world who did everything..!!

Quote
this is the problem leadership

http://www.amule.org/amule/thread.php?threadid=835&sid=

werner

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divide and conquer
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2004, 05:55:54 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by bootstrap
My opinion is - let him do what ever he wants.

This sounds like an excellent summary of what I'd also consider a good
approach for dealing with this situation.

On the technical side: I agree that separating the GUI from the protocol
engine makes a lot of sense: it should be much easier to get a program
without direct user interaction stable, one can use better and automated
test procedures, data structures can be chosen for efficiency, not GUI
constraints, etc. In fact, I'd consider the close integration with the GUI
the most important technical flaw of the mules.

Whether this appears as a library or as some IPC interface, is mainly a
question of taste. Of course, it makes perfect sense to put the actual
engine into a separate process, in order to allow it to run without GUI,
to protect it from bugs in the GUI code, and also to have more freedom
in implementing event loops, synchronization, and such.

On the licensing side: changing licenses while in the middle of a project
is hard. In particular, you can't go from GPL to LGPL, unless all
copyright holders agree. Fortunately, you can go from LGPL to GPL
(see section 3 of the LGPL).

I wouldn't be particularly worried about picking the LGPL. Since the
main interface of the protocol engine would probably be something
message-based anyway, it would be messy (although possible) to
try to place major restrictions on the use of that interface. A library that
translates this interface to something more convenient would both be
simple to implement, and easy to replace with something under a
different license. (Well, unless you're going to patent it :-)

On the "team player" side: some people simply don't interact well with
other people. This doesn't mean that they can't be useful in a project,
quite to the contrary. You just have to make sure everybody accepts
the constraints this imposes. E.g. if you have more than one developer
who anxiously defends his territory, and these territories overlap,
you'll quickly end up spending more time with fights than with coding.
Of course, this might still be great fun to watch.

Also, adding more manpower to a project usually makes the project
slower, not faster, because communication overhead increases
exponentially with the number of people, and some tasks are difficult
to share among several people, particularly if they're not exactly
soul mates.

Unfortunately, all this not only about technical skills. Sometimes,
people cling to a position because of financial reasons, because they
covet the prestige that goes with it, because they fear that, if they
changed their mind and did anything else, people would think less of
them, etc.

Keeping people apart isn't as bad as it may sound, particularly if
they already work best if alone and undisturbed. Also, even if this
means to redo major parts of a project from scratch, this isn't
necessarily bad: once you understand what the parts are, and how
they should interact, the actual implementation usually feels easy
(it may still take a while to do the typing, though :-). Also, code
written by one or a small number of developers will have a more
consistent structure and bugs will be easier to eliminate (plus there
will be fewer misunderstanding or problems because of working
with structures one is less familiar with).

So I'd suggest to try to get a rough understanding of an interface
between GUI and protocol engine, then let people work on their
parts, and not worry about overlaps. Particularly in the Open Source
world, people work best on things they understand and that they care
about. If there are mayor missing elements, somebody will probably
eventually be sufficiently annoyed about them that they start to care,
so the problem solves itself. (We have to show at least some
optimism, right ? :-)

Well, this summarizes a bit of my experience with such things. My
own approach is to either stay out of the battles, or to assume a
key role. So I can sympathize somewhat with Un-Thesis' position.
However, I also try not to step too often on other peoples' toes.

- Werner
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deltaHF

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Re: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2004, 09:03:13 PM »

Quote
(HopeSeekr@adsl-68-88-233-130.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) has joined #wxwindows
since this is the unofficial amule channel...
http://xmule.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=1208&st=0#entry6306
i just have to get this out now (been wanting to do this for a few hours now) YOU STUPID ASS CUNT MUTHERFUCKERS! I HATE YOU! -- directed at no one in particular

no comment and i think no need to vote anymore ppl ..

IhmSelbst

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Re: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2004, 01:34:04 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by deltaHF
no comment and i think no need to vote anymore ppl ..

indeed. - argh, wot an a..hole...
i would have much comments on this, but then i should delete my own posting, argh...
think, he's shown his real face once more again...


cu

fa²

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Re: The Un-Thesis Proposal to aMule Team
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2004, 03:03:42 PM »

I say Ignore too.

No good reasons to invite Un-Thesis in the aMule team.
Really no good reasons to change the status of Kry or DeltaHF (no!!).

You're making a fu**ing good job !! so why changes ? to make truble ?

So, go on, without listening the lies ;)
« Last Edit: March 17, 2004, 03:04:33 PM by fa² »
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